RationalWiki:What's Wrong with Being Gay?

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This essay is an original work by AmesG. Please comment only on the talk page.

This page is intended to gather user opinions about various issues affecting gays and couples. I'm presenting to my sex discrimination class on discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, and while I have a pretty good idea about why people discriminate, I want some help. Basically, I'd like the users here to either tell me (1) what they hear about the below issues or (2) what they feel about the below issues. Please expand upon your beliefs (or those you report here), with at least three sentences, if you can.

I hope this can, also, spark a debate.... but I'd rather keep the actual debate as to the issues on the talk page.

Contents

[edit] Evolution and homosexuality

From an evolutionary perspective, you would want the children of others to become homosexual, while not wanting your own children or children of relatives to become homosexual, since homosexuals have very low probability of passing their genes on to future generations.

Yes, but we're a civilized species and can transcend basing our views on what our selfish genes would 'want'. (Was I allowed to put this here?) -The Almighty Tuna 08:30, 5 May 2008 (EDT)

He converted me for lack of a better word, I totally am against my descendents not passing on my genes --Radio afikomen 03:41, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Same-Sex Marriage

Ought couples of the same sex be able to marry, using that term?
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  • Elassint
  • Kels
  • Wikinterpreter
  • Radioactive afikomen
  • Cracker
  • Human (though I'd say, drop the word "marriage" from law and just call them family corporations)
  • Researcher (though I'm not sure how much I care for the institution of marriage...)
  • PFoster
  • Pinto
  • Zmidponk
  • Egnome (everyone has the right to make a horrible mistake...)
  • SusanG Yes (If they must - the whole institution leaves a lot to be desired)
  • Spica
  • Allhailtuna (They can say that they're married, in eternal union, sharing a house temporarily, or whatever else they want.)
  • GodlessHeathen
  • Kahran042 (Hey, if they want to be miserable like everyone else...)
  • ArtemisKillerJTL: Certainly they should! The argument of conservatives for the longest (aside from their religious fretting) has been that couples would falsely represent their sexuality and desire to be married in order to obtain tax breaks and health/life insurance coverage. It is a ridiculous argument.
  • SpiderRiv
  • Yossarian (In Soviet Canuckistan, state marries you!!!...regardless of gender...)
  • 122.105.221.214 07:13, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Same-Sex Civil Unions

Ought couples of the same sex be able to engage in a secular ceremony that would result in the same rights and benefits accorded to married couples, just without using the phrase, "marriage"? In other words, ought couples of the same sex be allowed to be joined by "Civil Union"?
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  • SusanG Yes- but so ought hetero couples
  • Barbara Shack- but I'm not sure if gay couples should be allowed to adopt children
  • Spica
  • Allhailtuna (There should be no extra rights and benefits accorded to married couples, so that makes it easy enough)
  • Damo.
  • Javascap

[edit] Employment

Should it be legal for employers to decline to hire, decide pay, or terminate an employee, based on sexual orientation? Phrased otherwise, "should employers be allowed to discriminate against homosexuals?"
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  • Cracker
  • Only if, somehow, their sexuality prevents them from doing their work. So, no.
  • Researcher (though I would allow for an EXTREMELY limited religious exemption.)
  • Nope. PFoster.
  • If you have general anti-discrimination laws, then no. However, from a libertarian point of view, you could argue that discrimination should be ended through social pressure, not legal action. -Kyle Stewart
  • No. -Zmidponk
  • They have no right to discriminate against homosexuals. Egnome.
  • SusanG: No! What the F has an employee's life outside work got to do with the employer?
  • Spica@ No
  • Damo NO.
  • NO. Discrimination is wrong. -Javascap

[edit] Conduct or Status?

Is homosexuality a conduct (a mere act, which can be suppressed) or an inherent characteristic of the individual, immutable or otherwise? What legal ramifications should your answer have?
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  • Status - Kels
  • Status - Cracker
  • Status - Researcher -- as for legal ramifications, as a status instead of a conduct, it definitely makes them qualify for "protected status" legislation, which could then give them the right to sue those who discriminate against them.
  • Status - PFoster - ditto Researcher.
  • Depends on precise definition. If you define 'being homosexual' as 'committing homosexual acts', then it is possible to stop yourself from committing those acts. However, if you define 'being homosexual' as 'having homosexual desires', then that is an inherent characteristic - even when you stop yourself committing homosexual acts, you still have the desire (albeit, perhaps a repressed one) to commit them. As for legal ramifications, you should be free to do what you want, provided that does not hurt others, so that should be protected. - Zmidponk
  • It's been my experience that sexual preference is status. I didn't decide to be hetero, and there have definetly been times when I wished I wasn't (no insult meant to the fairer sex), but I couldn't change it. Egnome.
  • Status - SusanG - learned through experience
  • inherent characteristic. One does not learn to be straight or gay. It is possible that one can change one's behaviors with enough effort. --WaitingforGodot

[edit] Criminals?

Should the state be able to criminalize homosexual conduct, status, or both? Why?
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No - it's an impingement of people's civil and social rights, not to mention their inherent ones. Wikinterpreter Nein-Cracker

  • No. There is no overriding reason to criminalize the behavior, and as for the status, well that's criminalizing someone for existing. Researcher
  • Of course not. PFoster.
  • Pinto - Hell No
  • No. Goes against the simple concepts of 'freedom to exist' and 'freedom of expression'. -Zmidponk
  • No way. That would definetly be a violation of basic human rights, especially considering that the only "proof" anyone can ever provide as to the "wrongness" of homosexuality is obscure, out-of-context quotes from a handful of religious texts. Egnome.
  • SusanG No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No!
  • Barbara Shack so long as they stick to consenting adults there's no problem
  • Allhailtuna says No.
  • ArtemisKillerJTL: NO. Using a law to disguise what is actually discrimination is abominable.
  • NO Damo
  • No, end of story. Being Gay is NOT a crime.

[edit] Immutability

Is homosexuality "immutable"? Immutable means, inherent, and unchangeable, or so deeply linked with personality that it cannot be changed without great hardship.
Sign here without your signature. Yes.

  • Kels
  • Cracker
  • Human - as far as we know. And if it's a choice (mutable), it should still be a right.
  • Amen to Human. -- Researcher
  • PFoster. No idea. I tend to think that people are situated somewhere on a spectrum that runs from "completely gay" to "completely straight" and there are too many variables that go into deciding how a person is oriented/orients themselves at any given time. I know too many people who have switched teams - both ways - to think that these sorts of things are pre-programmed or immutable. Ultimately, I don't care why someone is "gay" or "straight." It's as relevant as why someone likes big breasts or blue eyes or whatever...
  • Pinto - I'll get back to you on that when more facts are known.
  • I don't think it's 100% 'immutable', but the factors involved in changing it are very complex and out of any one person's control, so attempting to knowingly alter your sexuality is at least very difficult, and probably impossible. Also, the point has to be made that whether you're homosexual or not has no relevance to anyone except yourself and anyone you're hoping to get into bed with. -Zmidponk
  • I personally don't think anything is 100% immutable. But as anecdotal evidence (from mostly nonchristian sources anyway) shows that attempts to change sexual orientation are very harmful to the mental and emotional health of the subjects, it seems to have a pretty high immutability percentile. Egnome.
  • SusanG Can't say for anyone else
  • Allhailtuna (More importantly, what difference does it make if it is?)
  • ArtemisKillerJTL: I agree with Allhailtuna; What difference does it make? NONE.
  • Immutable. I don't think many people would choose to be gay given the discrimination that still exists, thus I think it is not a choice. Damo

[edit] Therapy

Ought homosexuals be treated for homosexuality? Voluntarily, involuntarily, or both?
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No

  • Human - Societies should be treated for thinking there is something wrong with it.
  • PFoster. Amen to that, Human.
  • Researcher - If any homosexual wants therapy, no one should prevent them from seeking it. However, no one should force or pressure homosexuals to seek therapy of any kind.
  • Pinto - Agree with Researcher
  • Zmidponk - Agree with Researcher as well
  • I agree with Researcher, but I think some of that therapy should be dedicated to helping the person try to become comfortable with their sexuality, then move on to therapy to try to change it if the person still wants to. Egnome.
  • Barbara Shack agree with Egnome
  • No to all. It's not classified as a mental illness; DSM-10 declassified it ("homosexuality in itself is no longer included as a category", p. 11, DSM-10), UK declassified it in the 1960s. No need to treat something that isn't an "illness". Spica
  • SusanG NO! Nohow! No way!
  • Allhailtuna (They can't be, so this wouldn't make any difference. If it turns out that it's possible, then they can do it if they want. On the other hand, I object to the use of the word 'Treatment' for it.)
  • The need for therapy is generally due to the way society stigmatizes homosexuality. Human is right! --User:WaitingforGodot

[edit] Adoption

Should homosexual couples be allowed to adopt children at all? Should different restrictions apply?
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  • YES ~Elassint
  • Of course - Kels
  • Yes Radioactive afikomen
  • Duh Cracker
  • Absolutely. Human. And why do they have to be couples? Triads and monads make good parents, too!
  • Damn. Again, agree completely with Human. -- Researcher
  • PFoster - of course.
  • Pinto - Yes
  • Zmidponk - Yes, they should.
  • No question. They should have the same rights to adopt. No extra restrictions. Egnome.
  • No question about it, and no different restictions should apply. Spica
  • SusanG Of course - if they want screaming expensive horrid things around the house! (I'm not a fan of kids)
  • Barbara Shack no. Children can't choose their parents.
  • Allhailtuna (Not to mention homosexual singles, and homosexuals practicing polygamy,[1] which should also be legal.)
  • No Radio afikomen
  • Any person capible of, and desiring to be a parent should be allowed to adopt. there is nothing about sexuality that matters to an un-parented child. - waitingforgodot
  • SpiderRiv: Yes.

[edit] Questions?

Use the talk page or e-mail ames@nyu.edu.

[edit] Crap?

Crap is what males see on their outdoor plumbing after doing the nasty. — Unsigned, by: 85.17.140.218 / talk / contribs
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  • [Against] Everything. It is against gods law, it is gross, it is encouraged by the devil, and it goes against family values. — Unsigned, by: 209.17.190.78 / talk / contribs
  • Yes, I'm against this ignorant, anonymous jackoff who posted above me. Egnome.
  • So the person two posts above me is against criminalizing homosexuality? Alright then. ;D — Unsigned, by: 70.173.99.39 / talk / contribs

[edit] References, notes, and random comments

  1. ↑ When they're done practicing and have it worked out, let me know ;)
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