Talk:Historical revisionism

From RationalWiki

I just found this gem here.

"In the final analysis, revisionism is an essential part of history -- it provides a means to constantly improve our understanding by carefully making sure what we know of our "story" is made more accurate."

I have somewhere a list of words or phrases that mean in my opinion and in the final analysis is included. Is this indeed the final word on the subject? If so, we are all in trouble. At least , that's my opinion. Einar aka Carptrash 19:24, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Your opinion has been noted. RW isn't really neutral or unbiased... we present the truth unedited (ok, snarkily edited) which means opinion hearsay and other evidence inadmissible on Wikipedia is allowed here on RW. I know, it seems preposterous that we would allow the very content that we have issues against... however, the point of RW is that we can all think rationally... most of the content here doesn't require serious discussion or anything... like scientology. *shudders* Some topics don't require serious debate... and pseudosciences are one of them... there are a hojillion reviews out there attacking pseudosciences with proper tools... why reinvent the wheel? We'll just poke fun at them. :) --Eira ^omtg! The Goat be praised. 14:28, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

"however, the point of RW is that we can all think rationally...". Oh! That is news for me! Editor at CP^{Liar at RP!} 17:08, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

the above comment notwithstanding, I removed this from the first (2nd? sentence)

" in order to test their validity". Revisionism often happens when square history needs to be pounded into a round hole and has nothing to do with testing any validity. The Communists did it big time and the right wing in America (and likely other places) do it too, to validate their ddogma rather than to "improve our understanding" of anything. Carptrash 16:45, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

You're speaking about the "Revisionism as a pejorative" thing now, right? I always get confused when people talk about revisionism. For me, it's a pretty neutral concept that happens all the time. --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 16:54, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

I don't think that made the article better. Reexamining comes before rewriting (heck, the rewriting might not occur if the story "passes" the exam), and the point is to improve accuracy, validity, etc. ħuman ^{be in} 17:12, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

In my opinion, the word 'opinion' means monkey, and the word goat means 'actually'. And Stalin's USSR closely resembled Franco's fascism. -Judas Reward 16:26, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

[edit] While I understand what you're saying

While I understand what you're saying and for the most part it's right... there are some forms of valid historical revisionism... like to correct past biases, etc. While biases should be taught in the context of the age (Namely, Paul the Apostle wasn't a misogynist, he was just a regular male in that day in age) the context of the age should be presented with a critical modern eye. We can easily look back and condemn the oppression of women, without holding specific individuals who just happened to be living in the time accountable, unless their own actions were just simply so obviously egregious that we would feel that there is simply just no justification for their actions. Example, slavery was ok in the USA once. We can look back and say "slavery was a bad immoral thing of that time", we can also look back and say "some slave owners were actually well intentioned, and did their best to treat their slaves in the best way possible. Other slave owners were specifically bad, committing acts against the blacks that were reprehensible and offend the human conscience. That the times they were living in said it was ok, is no justification for their acts." This is like, ok, Nazis... some Nazis and a lot of Nazis in power were directly at fault for killing Jews, retards, convicts, disabled, communists, gays, etc. But the Nurnberg Courts ruled that the actions by subordinates in concentration camps were offensive to the human conscience and should not have been done EVEN THOUGH they were just following orders. However, there are other Nazis, like Schindler, who did a lot of good for Jews, and basically worked to subvert the system that defined them as inferior by using their inferior status in order to obtain them for "labor". Then, once he had them/owned them, treated them very well, and ensured that each was as well treated as he could treat them. Revising history to say that "slavery was wrong at the time it was going on" is not bad revisionism... in fact, it's revising history in the context of modern civil rights. Also, to revise history in order to point out how the Native Americans were treated, etc, is also a "good" use of "revisionism". We throw away the whole "pilgrims were helped by the indians and actually lived through the winter, didn't they get along great? Oh, except the savages that we killed" stereotypes that were/are part of our modern vision of history, and revise them to "Yeah, we showed up, some of the Native Americans helped out, others were upset that we were invading our land, and when they responded in force, we responded back in force. Looking at it with a critical modern eye, one sees that the colonists had such a superior advantage over the native americans, that their application of force was unreasonable, unwarranted, and unconscionable." --Eira ^omtg! The Goat be praised. 21:21, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

No, I can't really agree with that. Firstly, I don't think the aim of history should be to measure past societies after our own moral yardstick. I'm sure that's very useful for confirming ourselves in our own moral superiority (see e.g. Simone de Beauvoir's concept of The Other), but it doesn't do much in terms of actually understanding the past and appreciating its enormous complexity - which in my opinion is what the aim of history should be.

Secondly, I think we need to be very careful with promoting one set of values in a society (e.g. "slavery is good") as the dominant moral discourse (sorry, don't know what else to call it) of the age, and presenting those who do not fit in as exceptions to that discourse. It's better to see the situation as one of competing discourses in the social battlefield of ideas, some of which are dominant in one period or another, but never uncontested and eventually replaced. The struggle of supporters of slavery vs. emancipationists in 19th century US is just one example. I think this better reflects the complexities of any society. I mean, it's no like even our own society has any one, singular set of moral values.

And thirdly, "...one sees that the colonists had such a superior advantage over the native americans..." - how do we see that? I rather doubt that such a superiority existed before the beginning of the 19th century at the earliest, when the US started moving westwards in earnest and supporting the move with significant military forces. --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 11:08, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

*nods in agreement* Yes, you're right. Sorry, what I meant to say about looking back into the past from a moral point of view is to understand that we will be judged the same way. How we treat animals, etc. will be viewed very differently in the future, and hopefully with as much distain for the cruel treatment of them for meat that it deserves. Namely, to point out that we are not any morally superior over our past, and even if we were, we will be morally superior in the future, so we're always on a treadmill never being able to reach the top. Of instance, the standards used today by homosexual rights proponents to grade companies will eventually be useless, because even the worst offenders of that time will be better than what we have today. I think it's important to show a moral progression in our actions. That we are and never will be perfect, and look, here's the entire line of history to show that's what we should expect.

Definitely, sorry to present "slavery is good" as the prevalent discourse of the time. I meant to say "slavery is tolerable". But even then there were contemporaneous opponents. Still, prevailing legal authority was behind the slave owners... so I guess better "slavery is at the very least legal". I mean, even an anti-abortionist must claim about these times that "abortion is at the very least legal", no matter what their qualms are about it. Both opponents of those legalities sought/seek to change the law. As they should be working.

We had such a total superior advantage over the natives... they had boats, they had technology, and they had diseases that the natives weren't prepared for. There existed no point after Columbus landed in the west indies that an uprising of any native population would be able to secure protection from the incoming colonists. After all, I expand this to all of America, I'm not a nationalist, look at the Incas and the Aztecs... they were all wiped out by Europeans, and colonists seeking to exploit them. How? Boats, horses, weaponry, superior battle tactics, etc. It's the same as the United States against Iraq... come on, did they EVER have a chance? No. If they ever started showing a bit of a chance against us, we STILL HAD MORE to press upon them. --Eira ^omtg! The Goat be praised. 17:56, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

I'll just stay with the Native American question here, since it seems we agree more or less on the others. Haven't we had pretty much this discussion already, though? I definitely remember... no, that was with WaitingForGodot. Anyway, while it's difficult to avoid, I think it's important to try not to allow our knowledge of what happened to the natives in the 19th century and onwards to influence our view of event in earlier centuries.

Admittedly, this is pretty far outside of my usual field, but the way it looks to me, the Europeans did not have any significant advantage over the natives on the large scale before the early 19th century. Certainly the Europeans had superior technology and horses, but many of the Indian groups acquired these soon enough as well. Further, the Indians knew the geography and the terrain better, as well as the "inter-tribal" political landscape, which shouldn't be overlooked either. As a matter of fact, I think that it's often more fruitful to analyze the situation in political terms, and to view the various Indian groups as competent political actors in their own rights.

For instance, to stay with the conquests of the Aztecs and the Incas, technology certainly played a role in those events, but I don't think the conquistadors could have done what they did if they hadn't had support from the discontent Aztec vassals, or if the Inca Empire hadn't been divided by a succession war. On the other hand, several North American tribes managed to do perfectly well or even profit even from the American expansion, such as the Iowa, as I mentioned in the other discussion. So clearly, the Native Americans were capable of some fairly shrewd political maneuvering. Viewing them as just victims doesn't do them full justice, I think. --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 18:24, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

(unindent) Good points, and definitely agreed. The Indians certainly weren't just victims. I'm just trying to say that when we had the advantage, we could have handled it better. I mean, I grew up in the Southwest, where the Native Americans were essentially oppressed by the catholic church attempting to "tame the savage", and then the spanish catholics were all essentially oppressed when the United States came in. (My grandmother was beaten for speaking Spanish in school, as a result she never taught it on to any of her children.) So, you know, I think it is a good point to remember that everything is a political agent in these fields, and that the indians did some pretty low-down or as you described it "shrewd" actions as well, and they weren't just victims. I mean, hell, the Aztec were probably WORSE conquerors than the conquistadors. I just think that there were much better ways that we could have leveraged our advantages later in the game than what we did. Of course, the same applies as I mentioned for Iraq. We totally overpowered them militarially, and everyone knew this going in. It was our responsibility as the superior to avoid a tyrannical massacre upon another that was unable to mount a reasonable defense. It the reason why we insist that defendants in a criminal case have a right to a lawyer, so that the tyranny has a little less chance of repression. Power is awesome, and I don't think it's wrong to have it... it just has to be welded with a greater responsibility. (omg, now I sound like Spiderman's uncle... "WIth great power, comes great responsibility". *shrug* It's a very insightful message.) I think the best view on that history, and nearly all history would be an approach of "how could we have done things better?" --Eira ^omtg! The Goat be praised. 20:27, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Stalinism and fascism

Okay, I'll bite. So, tell us, how does Stalin's USSR closely resemble Franco's fascism?

My conclusive evidence: Dr. Zhivago, by David Lean, was mostly filmed in Spain. The movie is set in Stalin's USSR (and some years back) and filmed in Franco's Spain. Most of the Siberian snow scenes where filmed in Spain too with many square kilometers/miles of fake snow. Only a couple scenes were filmed in Northern Finland. Isn't this enough evidence? Editor at CP^{Liar at RP!} 17:12, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

Oh, to add a "serious" tidbit. During the filming they had problems: Franco's police or soldiers heard the singing of the Socialist anthem, l'Internationale, and they had much explanation to do... Editor at CP^{Liar at RP!} 17:14, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

Actually, another interesting tidbit, the scenes when he goes to the house and it's all covered in ice? That was all bees' wax... no kidding! --Eira ^omtg! The Goat be praised. 21:06, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

"Fascism and other totalitarian regimes" obviously that means Fascism, plus. Germany, Italy, and Franco's fascism both align in the "totalitarian" block, and the Soviet USSR fit nicely under "other totalitarian regimes". Either way, all totalitarian regimes tend to correct history in order to justify their own opinions... take the neo-con right here in America, "there are no studies about children raised by gay parents", "homosexual activity is unnatural" and the most lovely one "marriage being defined as one man and one woman is the single most common definition of marriage in the entirety of history!". Except all of this is bogus... Would one consider "scientific" creationism as historical revisionism? I mean, it sure smells a lot like it... start with an ideal you want to project, and work backwards to justify your belief, make shit up if you need to. *shrug* --Eira ^omtg! The Goat be praised. 21:05, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

On a slightly note but still (just) on topic, I've been bemused for some time now when reading Aschlafly's American and World History Lectures. As an adult who likes to think he knows a bit about History, I can see that Aschlafly clearly has his own agenda which is patently reflected in the material he has written. What I can't get my head around is a) how he manages to convince American parents that the stuff he is producing is historically accurate when the briefest of Googles will cast doubt on so much of it and when there are so many errors pointed out on the talk pages of his work and b) how those children he educates(?) can ever pass any sort of history exam in the real world.

Are the exams set by him and, if so, who validates the results? If they are not set by him but by some recognised authority, what does it say about their marking procedures if children taught with the sort of nonsense he spouts can "pass" a history exam.

It seems to me that there is something amiss when someone like this can be put in charge of the education of young children and get away passing this sort of stuff off as any sort of objective fact.Mick McT 11:07, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

This is why home schooling is illegal in Germany, and some other 1st world countries. However, because there are enough parents to petition a local government to deny that evolution is accepted scientific fact, there are enough to petition the governments of each state to allow them to home school, and teach with this bias. They like to talk about the bias and indoctrination upon children by the school system as liberal... well, if you put your "normal" at crazy right-wing, then yeah, it's going to come off as liberal. "OMG Mommy, today they told us that Indians weren't Christians!" "Oh, that's just left-wing nonsense son, what are they teaching you in that school anyways? Someone should write a law!" --Eira ^omtg! The Goat be praised. 17:45, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

It seems to me that there should be a homeschooling (I now see that there is. hmmm should be interesting) article where this could be discussed. I suspect that homeschooling is illegal in Germany because 1. the government will not give up this chunk of authoritarianism that they still have a hold of and 2. they are worried that the closet Nazi's will pass this on to their kids. Guess what? (blatant opinion coming up - don't read on if you can't take it) They should be allowed to do so. But perhaps I'll get a homeschooling page going and see what surfaces. Carptrash 10:50, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Spoken like someone who didn't learn anything from the Nazi's rule of Germany. Seriously, there's a very good reason why Germany buckles down on fundamentalists, and it's the exact reason that Rationalwiki is against it. I'd rather have a government that's lighthearted enough to have inside jokes, as well as forcefully moderate enough that it limits and controls extremist points of view, both liberal and conservative. Both are equally destructive. Also, Germany isn't refusing to give up a part of its "authoritarianism"... each Land is free to establish its own education guidelines that must be taught in schools... same as here in the USA. The only difference is that when they say things MUST BE TAUGHT, they mean it, and you can't get around it by raising some backwards confused child in homeschooling. Honestly, that's child abuse in my book. --Eira ^omtg! The Goat be praised. 05:33, 5 September 2008 (EDT)