Talk:Socialism

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Contents 1 A few quibbles 2 I just moved this here to talk/write about 3 Next 4 Social Democracy =/= Socialism 5 Pro-Marxist POV 6 Paris Commune, oh the good ol' days 7 Blair

[edit] A few quibbles

Is socialism a system of government - or is it an economic system? Also: libertarian socialism is not a turn of phrase one sees very often - wouldn't "social democracy" be a better term? And does communism by definition need to be totalitarian? Looking forward to some dialogue...PFoster 23:46, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

I bit the bullet and changed "libertarian socialism" to "social democracy." Libertarianism and socialism are petty strange bedfellows, after all. PFoster 11:08, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

Personally, I'd have to say that if there is only "some" control over the free market, then it isn't socialism. That would make the US a socialist country, which is blatantly not the case. (Then again, I don't even really consider the "social democratic" countries to be really "socialist", as individuals and the market still have a large influence.) Researcher 23:58, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Alright, I added a section about the meaning of 'libertarian socialism'. Libertarianism is the antonym of 'authoritarianism'. If you've got any more problems with the articles, or any questions you'd like to see answered, please post them here. -Judas Reward 13:42, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] I just moved this here to talk/write about

', and thus, all communists are socialists, but all socialists are not necessarily communists

In communist theory socialism is an historic stage between capitalism and communism. This does NOT mean all communists are socialist any more than it means all socialists are capitalists because it was the previous step. We need a person to go through the If X = Y and Z = ?" . . .... well. you know the drill. Carptrash 14:15, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

You have a point. Communists do advocate socialism, sure, but I suppose that you have a fair enough objection there, though I wouldn't agree that capitalists could be said to be socialists in the same way. Also, feudalism was the previous step, though that doesn't really matter. Anyways, I agree with leaving that out. Thanks for going over the article, btw. -Judas Reward 14:23, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

You are welcome, but since we are now at the second or third sentence, . ........ well you might not have heard the last of me on the topic. Carptrash 16:33, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Next

This is still in the article, but hopefully, not for long.

Socialism is revolutionary. However, it does not necessarily have to be accomplished by violent revolution, and many types of socialism advocate using democratic elections to take power, often coupled with a mass strike, and some involve the Party then handing power to a large worker's union, which will respond with a strike if it is denied this.

Okay, so Sweden is a socialist country. When was the revolution? What was the "mass strike" about? Is this article attempting to be serious or are we just here to have fun? I go either way. Carptrash 16:40, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

There's a definite slant to this article that rubs me the wrong way - can't put my finger on it but ... Susan^{Talk(if you must)} 16:49, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

Well for me it sounds as if the primary writer/s got most of their ideas about the subject written out, then shuffled all the words together and composed the current article by drawing one word at a time out of a hat. I have other theories, if anyone is interested. For example, they might well have channelled it while attempting to get in touch with Esther Hicks' friend Abraham - but they got J. Edgar Hoover by mistake, forgetting that Hicks does not talk to the dead. Or . .................... wait, don't go. Carptrash 19:37, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

Sweden's not a socialist country. A mass strke is what anarcho-syndicalists is necessary to bring about socialism, while some De Leonists believe that it should be done along with polls, though I wouldn't agree. And De Leonism involves handing over power to a Socialist Industrial Union when power is taken. -Judas Reward 01:21, 31 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Social Democracy =/= Socialism

Not exactly, anyway. Social Democrats believe in a very strong regulatory framework and a strong welfare state, but do still believe in some place for free enterprise and private ownership. Researcher 23:44, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Pro-Marxist POV

Hi, I feel there is a bit pro-Marxist POV in the current version of the Branches section. Please compare the present version with this version. I want to clarify some points;

• Marxist concept of "dictatorship of the proletariat" is bullshit and it should be mentioned. It is nothing more than the dictatorship of the party bosses over the people. This was the point of conflict between Marx and Bakunin. It should be mentioned in the article.
• Anarchism and Marxism are not same. Anarcho-capitalism is an anti-Marxist branch of anarchism. Classical anarchist reject Marxist idea of the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Marxists advocate centrally planned economy, anarchists advocate workers' self-management or autogesion.
• Libertarian socialism and anarchism are not same. Libertarian socialism encompasses only a few currents of anarchism.

• "Anarchism and Marxism are generally the same. However, they have been separated by much misunderstanding, such as the belief that 'dictatorship of the proletariat' actually refers to the dictatorship of one person or a small group, though this is the opposite of its intent, or the belief that Stalinism is representative of Marxism." —{{{2}}}

Good, but Leninism is the root behind the rise of Stalin. It was Lenin who emphasized the role of the party and he slandered all types of anti-authoritarian socialism in his propaganda bullshit "Left-Wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder.

• Why the mention of democratic socialism was removed? My own POV is more or less Libertarian socialism, if there is something wrong with Marxism that should be mentioned. --Space traveller 07:47, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

I've actually read many works of Marx, and his view was dominantly that the people (proletariat if you will) should be in charge, never, anywhere, does he mention a select few of the people to lord over the rest. That concept goes straight against the "Rule of the Proletariat", as the goal of Marxism and of that sentiment was to removes differences in class, or whatever concept you would put there, and if you intend to have a government while following the ideas of Marx, the only way to do that would be a government in which ALL of the people would have a say. InaVegt 08:28, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Strangely enough, most truly democratic countries (The USA is not, and has never been, a real democracy, due to the way the governmental structure is set up) have some degree of Social-Democracy worked into their systems, while relatively little non-democratic countries have done anything resembling socialism. (Stalinist countries are not even close to such, and are contrary to the classless system that Marxism promotes.) InaVegt 08:28, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Ah, but have you read Lenin? What of the vanguard? PFoster 09:45, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

I've been intending to, but I haven't been able to find his works yet, I have a few strictly Marxist friends, and they don't want Lenin in their bookchests, but they have plenty of Marx's works. InaVegt 10:09, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

I noticed that edit yesterday & was a bit puzzled by it. I think we need to blend both versions (the current one & old revision linked above). weaseLOId~ 09:58, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Ok, I am agree Marxism and Leninism have vast differences. Regarding Lenin's vanguardism, it did not work. On the other hand, anarchists in the Spanish Civil War did not form any so-called vanguard party, but there was true socialism during that brief period as George Orwell wrote in Homage to Catalonia:

"I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life--snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.--had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master." —{{{2}}}

Space traveller 11:54, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Of course, I included the discussions on 'dictatorship of the proletariat' in my article, and it was in no way 'dictatorship over the proletariat'. Anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron. However, I suppose anarcho-mutualism would be an exception, so I'll add that in. I got rid of 'democratic socialism' because it's pretty much redundant, and hardly incompatible with Marxism. Crud, Hal Draper, author of 'The Two Souls of Socialism' said this, "In the socialist movement as it developed before Marx, nowhere did the line of the Socialist Idea intersect the line of Democracy-from-Below. This intersection, this synthesis, was the great contribution of Marx: in comparison, the whole content of his Capital is secondary." Also, of course, as we all know, the most democratic area before now is probably the Paris Commune (or some anarchist commune). Well, until the Blanquists decided to take matters into their own hands... -Sρΐяαl.Дгсђıτέςτ^{stand up and shout} 13:54, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Paris Commune, oh the good ol' days

Was it Lenin or Trostky who said "for real socialism, look no further than the Paris Commune". In any case, could I either point out the sanguineous nature of this commmune or the fact both the Soviet Union and the Third Reich has Socialist in their official names? I would be content with either.^{— Unsigned, by: Matias / talk / contribs}

I agree we're defining terms far too narrowly (here & on some other articles). We should acknowledge that numerous governments have claimed to be or endeavoured to be socialist, even if they have failed to create a socialist society in the strictest interpretations of the word. weaseLOId~ 10:32, 6 November 2008 (EST)

What do Lenin or Trotsky have to do with anything? Yes, the Paris Commune was generally workers' ownership (dictatorship of the proletariat,as socialism is international), though the Blanquist influence in it undermined it quickly (it's the same for the Russian Revolution, ironically, where the Makhnovists, Kronstadt, etc, were crushed by the Bolshies), and then it was crushed. As for being sanguinous, they weren't really that murderous compared to... Certain people. Even so, unnecessary killings committed were a result of the Jacobin/Blanquists being a majority and implementing a dictatorship of the minority, which lead to the creation of a "Committee of Public Safety" by them, with the task of 'defending (by terror) the revolution'. However, the libertarian socialists may have been gaining support, but then the Commune was crushed in a way far more bloody than the Blanquists could have ever managed. The anarchist communes in Spain are perhaps a better example, though they were later undermined by the fact that the Blanquists and fascists (no thanks to the West) had all the money, and Franco later won the war. As Chomsky says, "a good example of a really large-scale anarchist revolution -- in fact the best example to my knowledge -- is the Spanish revolution in 1936, in which over most of Republican Spain there was a quite inspiring anarchist revolution that involved both industry and agriculture over substantial areas . . . And that again was, by both human measures and indeed anyone's economic measures, quite successful. That is, production continued effectively; workers in farms and factories proved quite capable of managing their affairs without coercion from above, contrary to what lots of socialists, communists, liberals and other wanted to believe." Bookchin, "[i]n Spain, millions of people took large segments of the economy into their own hands, collectivised them, administered them, even abolished money and lived by communistic principles of work and distribution -- all of this in the midst of a terrible civil war, yet without producing the chaos or even the serious dislocations that were and still are predicted by authoritarian 'radicals.' Indeed, in many collectivised areas, the efficiency with which an enterprise worked by far exceeded that of a comparable one in nationalised or private sectors. This 'green shoot' of revolutionary reality has more meaning for us than the most persuasive theoretical arguments to the contrary. On this score it is not the anarchists who are the 'unrealistic day-dreamers,' but their opponents who have turned their backs to the facts or have shamelessly concealed them." Of course, it also lead to large amounts of innovation, which some people would probably claim was impossible.

The Nazis just used the term 'socialism' in order to mislead members of the at the time powerful socialist movement. The USSR were state capitalist. Socialism refers to a classless society, the USSR was not at all classless, the upper levels of the state (to use the political meaning) were basically a capitalist class. -Sρΐяαl.Дгсђıτέςτ^{stand up and shout} 08:28, 28 November 2008 (EST)

[edit] Blair

To be fair on him and his administration, they were the ones to institute the national minimum wage (which Attlee, Wilson, and Callaghan failed to do), at a rate that's only a couple of dozen pence less than the one that Obama's floated, and made the Employment Relations Act, which was a major boost to unionism in Britain - I wouldn't praise him on the whole, but calling him 'conservative in all but name' is a fairly indefensible comment. --מְתֻרְגְּמָן וִיקִי ^{שְׁלֹום!}

Fair enough; change away. My rewrite was trying to improve what was there before, which was fairly badly worded. Personally I would say Blair is more centrist than conservative. weaseLOId~ 12:27, 9 November 2008 (EST)